📅 Original date posted:2022-10-13 📝 Original message:> - ...

2023-06-08T01:14:28+02:00

In reply to nevent1q…kc08
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📅 Original date posted:2022-10-13
📝 Original message:> - Bitrefill's on-chain payments for gift cards and phone top-ups

Bitrefill already supports lightning, so for them it would be easy to
solve by displaying the lightning transfer by default and only show
the on-chain payment as a fallback. Currently the on-chain payment at
Bitrefill and other similar providers is really a drop-down where you
select your wallet and then they display a tutorial to you on how to
create the on-chain transaction (fee rate, RBF flag, etc). I don't
have insights into Bitrefill, but one might suspect that encouraging a
lightning payment might be a win-win situation for them and their
users.

It would be interesting to know if there are any obstacles that
Bitrefill and other services face, or if they don't agree that
lightning is an improvement over accepting unconfirmed on-chain
transactions from untrusted parties.

> - Many bitcoin ATMs' on-chain deposits for selling bitcoin for cash (at least

I haven't tried them yet, but I suspect they could benefit in a
similar by showing lightning transfers more prominently. Moreover, any
UX improvement they can offer to users that intentionally or
accidentally selected RBF opt-in, will also benefit users once fullrbf
is widespread. To give an example, ATMs could immediately give out a
voucher for the cash amount that can be redeemed as soon as the
transaction is confirmed on-chain, to allow (untrusted) users to leave
the ATM and go for a walk in the meantime.

> With full-RBF, wallets should make it extremely clear to users that unconfirmed
> funds are not theirs (yet). Otherwise, protocol-unaware users that are
> transacting on-chain with untrusted parties can be easily scammed if they don't
> know they have to wait for a confirmation. Eg. in Argentina, it's pretty common
> to meet someone in person to buy bitcoin P2P for cash, even for newcomers.

This is easy to solve, because a wallet can simply display all
unconfirmed transactions as if they signalled for RBF. Your suggested
solution to "activate" fullrbf at a specific block height might be
counter productive, because educating users that unconfirmed
transactions are unsafe takes longer than a single block. So the
earlier users are educated that unconfirmed transactions from
untrusted parties are unsafe, the better.

> # Impact at Muun
>
> Work to transition Muun from using zero-conf submarine swaps to using payment
> channels is ongoing, but we are still several months away from being production
> ready. This means we would have to turn off outgoing lightning payments for
> +100k monthly active users, which is a good chunk of all users making
> non-custodial lightning payments today.

It would be unfortunate for those users, but I think that the risk
exists today. Relay of fullrbf transactions works reasonable well
already, unless you get unlucky with your selected peers. The only
missing piece is a few percent of hashrate that will accept fullrbf
replacement transactions. While this will certainly happen if a
Bitcoin Core release ships with the flag *on* by default, it still may
happen at any time even if Bitcoin Core doesn't ship with the flag at
all.

Best,
cndm1

📅 Original date posted:2022-06-16 📝 Original ...

2023-06-08T01:10:30+02:00

In reply to nevent1q…ytdl
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📅 Original date posted:2022-06-16
📝 Original message:alicexbt wrote:
> I do not have issues with multiple RBF policies being tried out and full-rbf being one of them. My disagreements are with rationale, lack of basic options in Bitcoin Core to employ/disable different RBF policies and a few arguments made in support for full-rbf. Whether it appears strawman or offtopic on github, there should be a place to share these disagreements.

Bitcoin Core is open source software, where developers open pull
requests to try to get them merged after review. If you see a "lack of
basic options" and no one has opened a pull request for it, it may be
for two reasons. First, it could be that it just doesn't make sense,
so no one sees a point in implementing it. Secondly, it may be that it
isn't on anyone's list of priorities. In the second case, you are
welcome to share your preference once. Moreover, no one is holding you
back to implement it yourself and suggest a pull request. However,
repeatedly demanding others to do it for you is not helpful in open
source software development.

cndm1

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📅 Original date posted:2022-10-13 📝 Original message:> - ...

📅 Original date posted:2022-06-16 📝 Original ...