{"type":"rich","version":"1.0","author_name":"npub1f2nxequ09nz44775vv6lkffq2plzqvrqramnk29eddmwcc9z7jys8ms289","author_url":"https://nostr.ae/npub1f2nxequ09nz44775vv6lkffq2plzqvrqramnk29eddmwcc9z7jys8ms289","provider_name":"njump","provider_url":"https://nostr.ae","html":"📅 Original date posted:2021-06-23\n📝 Original message:\u003e Premise: There is a healthy exchange market for PoS Coin X with tens of\nthousands of participants bidding to buy and sell the coin for other\ncurrencies on the market.\n\nThe difference here though is that Proof of Stake allows the quorum of coin\nholders to block the exchange of said coins if they are going to a\nparticular destination. Nothing requires these staking nodes to include\nparticular transactions into a block. With that in mind, it isn't just that\nyou require the permission of the person who sold you the coins, which I\ncan agree is a less dangerous form of permission, but you must also require\nthe permission of at least 51% of the coin holders to even receive those\ncoins in the first place. This is not true in a Proof of Work system and\nthis difference absolutely should not be trivialized.\n\nKeagan\n\nOn Wed, Jun 23, 2021 at 2:30 AM Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev \u003c\nbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\n\u003e \u003e  Barrier to entry in PoS is being given permission by the previous owner\n\u003e of a token\n\u003e\n\u003e The idea that proof of stake is not permissionless is completely invalid.\n\u003e It pains me to see such an argument here. Perhaps we can come to an\n\u003e agreement by being more specific. I'd like to propose the following:\n\u003e\n\u003e Premise: There is a healthy exchange market for PoS Coin X with tens of\n\u003e thousands of participants bidding to buy and sell the coin for other\n\u003e currencies on the market.\n\u003e\n\u003e If the premise above is true, then there is no significant permission\n\u003e needed to enter the market for minting blocks for PoS Coin X. If you make a\n\u003e bid on someone's coins and they don't like you and refuse, you can move on\n\u003e to any one of the other tens of thousands of people in that marketplace.\n\u003e Would you agree, Cloud Strife, that this situation couldn't be considered\n\u003e \"permissioned\"?\n\u003e\n\u003e If not, consider that participation in *any* decentralized system requires\n\u003e the permission of at least one user in that system. If there are thousands\n\u003e of bitcoin public nodes, you require the permission of at least one of them\n\u003e to participate in bitcoin. No one considers bitcoin \"permissioned\" because\n\u003e of this. Do you agree?\n\u003e\n\u003e On Thu, Jun 17, 2021 at 1:15 PM Cloud Strife via bitcoin-dev \u003c\n\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Barrier to entry in PoW is matter for hardware and energy is\n\u003e\u003e permissionless and exist all over the universe, permissionless cost which\n\u003e\u003e exists for everyone no matter who because it's unforgeable.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Barrier to entry in PoS is being given permission by the previous owner\n\u003e\u003e of a token for you to have it via transfer or sale, both choices they never\n\u003e\u003e have to make since there are no continuous costs with producing blocks\n\u003e\u003e forcing it. A permission is an infinitely high barrier to entry if the\n\u003e\u003e previous owner, like the premining party, refuses to give up the token they\n\u003e\u003e control.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e You're skipping the part where you depend on a permission of a central\n\u003e\u003e party in control of the authority token before you can produce blocks on\n\u003e\u003e your rasberry Pi.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Proof of stake is not in any possible way relevant to permissionless\n\u003e\u003e protocols, and thus not possibly relevant to decentralized protocols where\n\u003e\u003e control must be distributed to independent (i.e. permissionless) parties.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e There's nothing of relevance to discuss and this has been figured out\n\u003e\u003e long long ago.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-Fallacy\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e https://medium.com/@factchecker9000/nothing-is-worse-than-proof-of-stake-e70b12b988ca\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 7:13 AM James MacWhyte via bitcoin-dev \u003c\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e @Lloyd wrote:\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e Of course in reality no one wants to keep their coin holding keys online\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e so in Alogorand you can authorize a set of \"participation keys\"[1] that\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e will be used to create blocks on your coin holding key's behalf.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Hopefully you've spotted the problem.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e You can send your participation keys to any malicious party with a nice\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e website (see random example [2]) offering you a good return.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Damn it's still Proof-of-SquareSpace!\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e I believe we are talking about a comparison to PoW, correct? If you want\n\u003e\u003e\u003e to mine PoW, you need to buy expensive hardware and configure it to work,\n\u003e\u003e\u003e and wait a long time to get any return by solo mining. Or you can join a\n\u003e\u003e\u003e mining pool, which might use your hashing power for nefarious purposes. Or\n\u003e\u003e\u003e you might skip the hardware all together and fall for some \"cloud mining\"\n\u003e\u003e\u003e scheme with a pretty website and a high rate of advertised return. So as\n\u003e\u003e\u003e you can see, Proof-of-SquareSpace exists in PoW as well!\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e The PoS equivalent of buying mining hardware is setting up your own\n\u003e\u003e\u003e validator and not outsourcing that to anyone else. So both PoW and PoS have\n\u003e\u003e\u003e the professional/expert way of participating, and the fraud-prone, amateur\n\u003e\u003e\u003e way of participating. The only difference is, with PoS the\n\u003e\u003e\u003e professional/expert way is accessible to anyone with a raspberry Pi and a\n\u003e\u003e\u003e web connection, which is a much lower barrier to entry than PoW.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e\u003e\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20210623/799426cc/attachment.html\u003e"}