{"type":"rich","version":"1.0","author_name":"npub170s9de2ganthnna75443h70tnsn2lvmcq5365r0juk8nfa93lthqwjr45x","author_url":"https://nostr.ae/npub170s9de2ganthnna75443h70tnsn2lvmcq5365r0juk8nfa93lthqwjr45x","provider_name":"njump","provider_url":"https://nostr.ae","html":"📅 Original date posted:2015-08-09\n📝 Original message:In the Lightning network it is assumed that the balances can always be\nsettled on the blockchain if any of the parties along the channel has a\nproblem. What if the fee on the settlement transactions is not high enough\nto enter the blockchain? You can't do replace-by-fee after the fact. Do the\nfees always have to assume worst case scenarios on the Bitcoin fee market?\n\nOn 9 August 2015 at 19:54, Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev \u003c\nbitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\n\u003e Tom, you appear to be misunderstanding how lightning network and\n\u003e micropayment hub-and-spoke models in general work.\n\u003e\n\u003e \u003e But neither can Bob receive money, unless payment hub has\n\u003e advanced it to the channel (or (2) below applies).  Nothing requires the\n\u003e payment hub to do this.\n\u003e\n\u003e On the contrary the funds were advanced by the hub on the creation of the\n\u003e channel. There is no credit involved. if the funds aren't already available\n\u003e for Bob to immediately claim his balance, the payment doesn't go through in\n\u003e the first place.\n\u003e\n\u003e On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Tom Harding via bitcoin-dev \u003c\n\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\n\u003e\u003e On 8/4/2015 4:27 AM, Pieter Wuille via bitcoin-dev wrote:\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \u003e Don't turn Bitcoin into something uninteresting, please.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Consider how Bob will receive money using the Lightning Network.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Bob receives a payment by applying a contract to his local payment\n\u003e\u003e channel, increasing the amount payable to him when the channel is closed.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e There are two possible sources of funding for Bob's increased claim.\n\u003e\u003e They can appear alone, or in combination:\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Funding Source (1)\n\u003e\u003e A deposit from Bob's payment hub\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Bob can receive funds, if his payment hub has made a deposit to the\n\u003e\u003e channel.  Another name for this is \"credit\".\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e This credit has no default risk: Bob cannot just take payment hub's\n\u003e\u003e deposit. But neither can Bob receive money, unless payment hub has\n\u003e\u003e advanced it to the channel (or (2) below applies).  Nothing requires the\n\u003e\u003e payment hub to do this.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e This is a 3rd-party dependency totally absent with plain old bitcoin.\n\u003e\u003e It will come with a fee and, in an important way, it is worse than the\n\u003e\u003e current banking system.  If a bank will not even open an account for Bob\n\u003e\u003e today, why would a payment hub lock up hard bitcoin to allow Bob to be\n\u003e\u003e paid through a Poon-Dryja channel?\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e Funding Source (2)\n\u003e\u003e Bob's previous spends\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e If Bob has previously spent from the channel, decreasing his claim on\n\u003e\u003e its funds (which he could have deposited himself), that claim can be\n\u003e\u003e re-increased.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e To avoid needing credit (1), Bob has an incentive to consolidate\n\u003e\u003e spending and income in the same payment channel, just as with today's\n\u003e\u003e banks.  This is at odds with the idea that Bob will have accounts with\n\u003e\u003e many payment hubs.  It is an incentive for centralization.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e With Lightning Network, Bob will need a powerful middleman to send and\n\u003e\u003e receive money effectively.  *That* is uninteresting to me.\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e bitcoin-dev mailing list\n\u003e bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org\n\u003e https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev\n\u003e\n\u003e\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \u003chttp://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/attachments/20150809/749c2207/attachment.html\u003e"}