{"type":"rich","version":"1.0","author_name":"npub16cadfx8ew8z4qmsmsd9kndvntt4uad7vsdmkjer4jd8wjq4swxrqp2gy5d","author_url":"https://nostr.ae/npub16cadfx8ew8z4qmsmsd9kndvntt4uad7vsdmkjer4jd8wjq4swxrqp2gy5d","provider_name":"njump","provider_url":"https://nostr.ae","html":"📅 Original date posted:2012-10-02\n📝 Original message:-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----\nHash: SHA1\n\nOn 01/10/2012 17:52, Peter Vessenes wrote:\n\u003e I'm a big proponent of a testing project.\n\nI am very happy to hear this, however, your actual words are slightly\nevasive. I do not expect you to be up to speed on this. Gavin started\na project called 'the bitcoin testing project' This project solicited\ndonations, about 80 coins last time I checked.  However these 80 odd\ncoins were donated to 'the bitcoin testing project' This would seem to\nbe an official bitcoin (both protocol and client) testing project.  I\nsigned up to work on this, and organise as much as i could of this.\nfor various reasons I did not manage to do the testing I wanted to on\n0.7 i over committed myself.\n\nAre the donations solicited for the 'bitcoin testing project) funds\ngoing to be given to 'the foundation'?\n\nDoes the foundation support 'the bitcoin testing project'? does the\nfoundation have any involvement with 'the bitcoin testing project'?\n\n\u003e \n\u003e I think if one could self organize that Gavin and team wanted to\n\u003e bless we could put up some BTC as bounties or funding. We won't\n\u003e have our heads around the foundation budget for a few more weeks,\n\u003e but self-organization is often slower than budgeting. :)\n\nIm ready to go, more or less.  Please check out the links in my\nprevious emails. I have over 400 testcases (8 platforms * 50 release\ntests) - Also I am not sure what you mean by bless, I take it that is\na euphemism for pay?\n\nI have tried my hardest to get bettermeans to work, but it doesnt.  It\ndoes show quite a lot of work that I have done though. If you were to\nsay to me, 'steve, by monday we need end to end, requirements based\ntesting' It would be done. (I have already spent over 4 months on\nthis)  Leaderless leadership is something I am having a hard time\nwith, bettermeans is excellent at this.  But I have found very little\nin regards to voting and polling that integrates with the project in\nan effortless way like bettermeans.\n\nI understand that the budget from the foundation is something that\nneeds to be worked on and organised.  I offer my services in this area\n(qa only).  I would be happy to submit my cv and refs for this, if\nrequired.\n\nI am now feeling frustrated and useless.  has my last 4 months of work\nbeen for nothing? it feels like it.  I know I bang on about processes\nbut they are sorted, you can only attract talent like Arklan if he has\na process to follow. i feel like a broken record.\n\ntl;dr version\n1 - Will donations to the 'bitcoin testing project' as started by\ngavin going to be given to the foundation?\n2 - Is the work bill hees and myself going to be binned?\n3 - I feel like I have the knowledge and drive to push this, but I\ncant do it on my own.\n4 - Is bill or I entitled to any of the cash raised for 'the bitcoin\ntesting project'\n5 - Do I have to join the foundation to have a say in how the project\n(testing) is done?\n6 - sorry for being so mercenary, but am I going to receive any coin\nfor work I have done?\n7 - It really probably is the time for a bitcoin-test list to appear.\n Is there anything I can do to make this happen?\n\n\u003e \n\u003e This is just my opinion, but I would like very, very much to move\n\u003e the current specification into unit tests so that anyone could\n\u003e validate their alternate bitcoin implementation. This is a lot of\n\u003e work, some of which has been done, much of which hasn't.\n\nhave a look at the stuff in bettermeans.  I personally think we can go\na step further and publish guidelines (similar to RFC's and all the\ntests that we would do against a ref client)\n\nBut I dont want to waste any more time on stuff that is going to be\nignored, life is short.\n\n\u003e \n\u003e So, my two cents, plus an offer to bring it up at our next\n\u003e budgeting meeting.\n\nI accept that offer. and I really appreciate it.  I have some more\nquestions I would like you to ask in regards to QA. (Gavin and I\nskyped about this a while ago and we didnt really come to a\nresolution, weworked out the problems though ;) )\n\nI have an exceptionally detailed qa process (based off the game\ncertification process) - but I have gone on about this at length in\nprevious messages.\n\nI thank you for your email and your involvement with this, but do you\nthink we are closer to getting stuff tested? call my bluff... Not one\nperson has asked for login details to my proposals - and i even have a\nbugzilla version now.\n\nI need to sleep.  sorry if i rambled.\n\nnite nite,\n\nsteve\n\n\u003e \n\u003e Peter\n\u003e \n\u003e \n\u003e On Mon, Oct 1, 2012 at 7:28 AM, steve \u003csteve at mistfpga.net\u003e wrote:\n\u003e \n\u003e On 01/10/2012 14:52, Arklan Uth Oslin wrote:\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Hi guys.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e So, as I mentioned on the bitcointalk.org forums thread about\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e the foundation, I want to get involved in the QA side of\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e bitcoin development. I've done functional testing in the\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e video game industry for years.\n\u003e \n\u003e Nice one, I worked in games for quite a few years. (before getting \n\u003e into finance then pentesting) there are about 6 keen testers now. \n\u003e maybe we should get a bitcoin-test mailing list, where we can\n\u003e discuss stuff without disturbing the dev team.\n\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e I've read all the messages in this thread, but I'm left\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e unclear how I can most effectively and quickly being helping\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e out. Could I get a bit of a directional nudge?\n\u003e \n\u003e Great question... for me I feel structure is the most important\n\u003e thing to sort out first.  However we desperately need detailed\n\u003e testcases for the release of a new version. - Not too much on the\n\u003e change log stuff, more on the noddy stuff (as gavin points out\n\u003e below), downloading and making sure it works on a non dev machine,\n\u003e make sure the wallet isnt overwritten, etc.) doing games qa I\n\u003e imagine this would be an ideal place for you to start.  I have a\n\u003e MSDN and TechNet licence so if you need some reference ms virtual\n\u003e machines I can help you out.\n\u003e \n\u003e However we need some testcase software.  Please check out what was \n\u003e done on bettermeans for the stuff I was planning out...\n\u003e \n\u003e It details everything from recompense and testcases. bettermeans\n\u003e kinda died a death though...\n\u003e \n\u003e check out:\n\u003e \n\u003e Bitcoin over all- \n\u003e https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/4180/wiki/Page_index \n\u003e discussion https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/4180/boards\n\u003e \n\u003e 0.7 https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/4256/boards and \n\u003e https://secure.bettermeans.com/projects/4256/wiki\n\u003e \n\u003e I still have the testcases, but until we get some proper testcase \n\u003e software I am loathed to publish them in a half arsed format.\n\u003e (they worked well on bettermeans, then just vanished one day...)\n\u003e what testcase software are you familiar with?\n\u003e \n\u003e apart from that, what do you feel you can do for the project? how\n\u003e long have you been involved in bitcoin?  It may well be worth\n\u003e reading up all the dev stuff on the wiki so you can get you head\n\u003e around how the bitcoin protocol is different from the daemon and qt\n\u003e client. What do you think you can and will enjoy doing? What is\n\u003e your skill set in regard to networking, crypto and operating\n\u003e systems. (not that you need any, in any we still want and need you.\n\u003e :)\n\u003e \n\u003e there really is room for you to do whatever role you want, and as \n\u003e little or as much as you want - however funding is now a very\n\u003e tricky issue. so much so that I am not sure I want anything to do\n\u003e with it(distribution of coin based on work.). - I just paid for\n\u003e some logo spec work out of my own pocket (for example).  I have\n\u003e some testers i know irl who are willing to work for coin.\n\u003e \n\u003e NOTE: This response has nothing to do with the bitcoin foundation.\n\u003e I am not a member of the foundation. I do not speak for them or\n\u003e even probably with them. I am still trying to work out how much qa\n\u003e the foundation should be responsible for, and/how it is supposed to\n\u003e work. I think the games cert process would be ideal for this.  This\n\u003e however this a discussion that probably wont have my involvement.\n\u003e (personally I believe that the foundation should publish\n\u003e requirements with example code and testcases for each aspect of the\n\u003e reference client. (on reference platforms - I do not expect many to\n\u003e agree with this though)\n\u003e \n\u003e As a side note, what happens to the donations to the bitcoin\n\u003e testing project? do they get moved over to the foundation? this\n\u003e question is bigger than this email. as far as I know they are all\n\u003e on an address Gavin holds. Actually I would like to be involved in\n\u003e any discussions that would impact QA, does this mean I need to join\n\u003e the foundation or just go lone wolf?\n\u003e \n\u003e tbh I dont really understand foundations.  I always thought they\n\u003e were just a tax dodge.\n\u003e \n\u003e Sorry for the long message. :)\n\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Arklan\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e ---------- As long as there is light, the darkness holds no\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e fear. And yet, even in the deepest black, there is life. -\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Arklan Uth Oslin\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e I want to leave this world the same way I came into it:\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e backwards and on fire. - Arklan Uth Oslin\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e On Sat, Sep 29, 2012 at 12:26 PM, steve \u003csteve at mistfpga.net\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e wrote:\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Hi Gavin,\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Sorry for the delayed response, I wanted to take a couple of\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e days to reflect on your email.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e On 26/09/2012 19:09, Gavin Andresen wrote:\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e And their are other methods too.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e The GUI::Test package for perl will allow this to be greatly \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e automated. (I have done this before on the localisation of \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e photoshop.)\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e this why we need detailed testscripts and plans.  so we know\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e what has and hasnt been done. The more boring the task the\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e more work that needs to go into testcase development.  This\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e is the area I see as my greatest failing last time.  I have a\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e large number of virtual machines and should have at least\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e this work.  But we need very detailed testcases.  with decent\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e testplans just downloading the software, syncing the block\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e chain, syncing an existing wallet, rescanning the blockchain\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e and verifying the balance would cover a large number of\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e tests.  The idea behind having lots of very specific\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e testcases is you get to see what tests have not been run.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e I understand your concern, however I have taken a couple of\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e days to reflect on this and I still strongly feel that in\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e order to make sure that this sticks, and is still useful in 1\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e years time we need to lay proper foundations. Those\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e foundations are not word documents, spreadsheets, etc.  they\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e are selecting the right tools for the job.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e We can gain so much benefit from using 3rd party software. \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e (bettermeans would rock if it wasnt rotting)\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e I am sure you could do your coding work just using vi, but an\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e sdk makes it much easier and allows you to work in a more\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e productive manner.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e I have had a couple of off list emails with some testers and\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e they also feel that it is very important to make sure we have\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e a sound foundation (mantis is so much more than just a bug\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e reporting tool, I see the bug reporting functionality as\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e secondary to the main test run functionality - but it doesnt\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e have to be mantis based, we do need workflow and testcase\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e software though - and proper software for this is much better\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e than just a massive google doc.) however I am checking out\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e some other software that has been recommended.  It will be\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e very hard to change 'the process' once we have something we \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e are used too (just look at the current resistance) I promise \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e nothing will change for the dev team.  But test does need\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e other tools, and processes.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e If you feel that strongly that I am going about this the\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e wrong way, I am happy to step back and let someone else sort\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e it out (I will still do all the testing I possibly can). I\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e would feel that this would be a real shame and we have the\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e chance to setup requirements to functionality to tests all\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e with traceability. why not do it right from the start?\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e I will open up my vps' somepoint over the next few days and\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e you can see what I mean. I will setup a fake git project, and\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e sort out the interactions.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e ------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e \nHow fast is your code?\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e 3 out of 4 devs don\\\\\\'t know how their code performs in \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e production. Find out how slow your code is with\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e AppDynamics Lite.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;262219672;13503038;z? \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n_______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n-\n------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e Got visibility?\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Most devs has no idea what their production app looks like.\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Find out how fast your code is with AppDynamics Lite. \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;262219671;13503038;y? \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net \n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\n\u003e\u003e\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e \n\u003e\u003e ------------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\u003e\u003e\n\u003e\u003e \nGot visibility?\n\u003e\u003e Most devs has no idea what their production app looks like. Find\n\u003e\u003e out how fast your code is with AppDynamics Lite. \n\u003e\u003e http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;262219671;13503038;y? \n\u003e\u003e http://info.appdynamics.com/FreeJavaPerformanceDownload.html \n\u003e\u003e _______________________________________________ \n\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development mailing list \n\u003e\u003e Bitcoin-development at lists.sourceforge.net \n\u003e\u003e https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development\n\u003e\u003e \n\u003e \n\u003e \n\u003e \n\n-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----\nVersion: GnuPG v2.0.17 (MingW32)\nComment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://www.enigmail.net/\n\niQEcBAEBAgAGBQJQa5GXAAoJEFvEB9dQFvtQUR4H/3o0aOyvF6u4Wi5UUxMtGWXD\nBduuag9jNY/GACFshYs365wWqJcK96GXc/svOx0l/TTv10tw9BboaMpKY2x9gWri\n7DJ+mym1AorgHBlZUgZJy3kQrb5yUCR7MiYU0O28QAqK5aVoklBa6cGQJqQVRa2j\nvm9UrKCOeMbHiNMjagLP3s1tcQxYJUwm8hEuALWjyqsDQ+Rk7j2ndBnfonJLTCDc\nrIy6HhmfAGSCaXFzhH35Ydfl2hV6ASaUHtBSKke3bB/oJ/bA5XspmPPhCkjum4Lo\n4b28i4/O8BTisAsr8N3FYQ17dmD2fu8/gmQt1Rl9MBfWBHPJ9YVIIittk+WhcI0=\n=nER6\n-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----"}