npub1tf…rfq0n

📅 Original date posted:2023-08-02
🗒️ Summary of this message: Storage is not the issue with block sizes, and there are efforts to optimize how much space is needed by individual nodes.
📝 Original message:
Storage is not and never has been the trouble with block sizes. Please,
before participating in discussions of this topic, at least get a basic
understanding of it. Here's a talk I did a few years ago to get you
started: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqNEQS80-h4&t=7s
Luke
On 8/2/23 07:07, GamedevAlice via bitcoin-dev wrote:
> > If the rate of growth of the blockchain is too high, Ordinals aren't the
> > cause, it's rather that the theoretical limit of the amount of
> storage that
> > can be added per block isn't sufficiently limited. (Whether they are
> used
> > to produce Ordinals or something else)
>
>
> True, the real question is whether the storage is in fact sufficiently
> limited. And I believe the answer to be 'yes'.
>
> Why? Consider a worst case scenario using the maximum block size of
> 4MB and a block time of 10min, that's a growth of 210.24GB per year.
> Some of that can be pruned, but let's just assume that you don't want
> to. And currently the entire blockchain is roughly 500GB.
>
> Now that looks like a lot of growth potential based on where we are at
> now. However, with the current cost of hardware, you can get a 5 TB
> hard drive for less than $150. That will last you 21 years before you
> run out of space. That's less than $0.02 per day.
>
> That is a worst case scenario.
>
> Consider that since cost of hardware drops over time, it will become
> less of a burden over time.
>
> Also, keep in mind there are efforts to optimize how much of that
> actually needs to be stored by nodes. For example, the aforementioned
> topic announcing Floresta which seems to be a node implementation that
> uses utreexo to allow nodes to run without needing to maintain the
> full UTXO set. Other initiatives exist as well.
>
> There is definitely a lot of optimization potential for drastically
> reducing how much space is actually needed by individual nodes.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 2, 2023, 5:40 AM ,
> <bitcoin-dev-request at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> Send bitcoin-dev mailing list submissions to
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
>
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Pull-req to enable Full-RBF by default (Peter Todd)
> 2. Re: Concern about "Inscriptions". (ashneverdawn)
> (Keagan McClelland)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2023 01:28:06 +0000
> From: Peter Todd <pete at petertodd.org>
> To: Daniel Lipshitz <daniel at gap600.com>
> Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
> <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Pull-req to enable Full-RBF by default
> Message-ID: <ZMmxJoL1ZH4//8Fg at petertodd.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> On Wed, Aug 02, 2023 at 01:27:24AM +0300, Daniel Lipshitz wrote:
> > Your research is not thorough and reaches an incorrect conclusion.
> >
> > As stated many times - we service payment processors and some
> merchants
> > directly - Coinspaid services multiple merchants and process a
> > significant amount of BTC they are a well known and active in
> the space -
> > as I provided back in December 2022 a email from Max the CEO of
> Coinspaid
> > confirming their use of 0-conf as well as providing there
> cluster addresses
> > to validate there deposit flows see here again -
> >
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2022-December/021239.html
> > - if this is not sufficient then please email
> support at coinspaid.com and ask
> > to be connected to Max or someone from the team who can confirm
> Conspaid is
> > clients of GAP600. Max also at the time was open to do a call, I
> can check
> > again now and see if this is still the case and connect you.
> >
> > That on its own is enough of a sample to validate our statistics.
>
> Why don't you just give me an example of some merchants using
> Coinspaid, and
> another example using Coinpayments, who rely on unconfirmed
> transactions? If
> those merchants actually exist it should be very easy to give me
> some names of
> them.
>
> Without actual concrete examples for everyone to see for
> themselves, why should
> we believe you?
>
> > I have also spoken to Changelly earlier today and they offered
> to email pro
> > @ changelly.com <http://changelly.com> and they will be able to
> confirm GAP600 as a service
>
> Emailed; waiting on a reply.
>
> > provider. Also please send me the 1 trx hash you tested and I
> can see if it
> > was queried to our system and if so offer some info as to why it
> wasnt
> > approved. Also if you can elaborate how you integrated with
> Changelly - I
> > can check with them if that area is not integrated with GAP600.
>
> Why don't you just tell me exactly what service Changelly offers
> that relies on
> unconfirmed transactions, and what characteristics would meet
> GAP600's risk
> criteria? I and others on this mailing list could easily do test
> transactions
> if you told us what we can actually test. If your service actually
> works, then
> you can safely provide that information.
>
> I'm not going to give you any exact tx hashes of transactions I've
> already
> done, as I don't want to cause any problems for the owners of the
> accounts I
> borrowed for testing. Given your lack of honesty so far I have
> every reason to
> believe they might be retalliated against in some way.
>
> > As the architect of such a major change to the status of 0-conf
> > transactions I would think you would welcome the opportunity to
> speak to
> > business and users who actual activities will be impacted by
> full RBF
> > becoming dominant.
>
> Funny how you say this, without actually giving any concrete
> examples of
> businesses that will be affected. Who exactly are these
> businesses? Payment
> processors obviously don't count.
>
> > Are you able to provide the same i.e emails and contacts of
> people at
> > the mining pools who can confirm they have adopted FULL RBF ?
>
> I've already had multiple mining pools complain to me that they
> and their
> employees have been harassed over full-rbf, so obviously I'm not
> going to
> provide you with any private contact information I have. There's
> no need to
> expose them to further harassment.
>
> If you actually offered an unconfirmed transaction guarantee
> service, with real
> customers getting an actual benefit, you'd be doing test transactions
> frequently and would already have a very good idea of what pools
> do full-rbf.
> Why don't you already have this data?
>
> --
> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org
> <http://petertodd.org>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2023 22:58:53 -0700
> From: Keagan McClelland <keagan.mcclelland at gmail.com>
> To: Hugo L <ashneverdawn at gmail.com>, Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
> <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Concern about "Inscriptions".
> (ashneverdawn)
> Message-ID:
>
> <CALeFGL2Z3q90Esnu0qV0mqpHZaCnOV-5aks2TKGOjY4L+14d3w at mail.gmail.com
> <mailto:CALeFGL2Z3q90Esnu0qV0mqpHZaCnOV-5aks2TKGOjY4L%2B14d3w at mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> There is an open question as to whether or not we should figure
> out a way
> to price space in the UTXO set. I think it is fair to say that
> given the
> fact that the UTXO set space remains unpriced that we actually
> have no way
> to determine whether some of these transactions are spam or not.
> The UTXO
> set must be maintained by all nodes including pruned nodes,
> whereas main
> block and witness data do not have the same type of indefinite
> footprint,
> so in some sense it is an even more significant resource than
> chain space.
> We may very well discover that if we price UTXOs in a way that
> reflect the
> resource costs that usage of inscriptions would vanish. The
> trouble though
> is that such a mechanism would imply having to pay "rent" for an
> "account"
> with Bitcoin, a proposition that would likely be offensive to a
> significant
> portion of the Bitcoin user base.
>
> Cheers,
> Keags
>
> On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 4:55?AM Hugo L via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
> > I don't think it's anyone's place to judge which types of
> transactions
> > should be allowed or not on the network, in fact, when it comes
> to privacy
> > and censorship resistance, it would be better if we were not
> even able to
> > distinguish different types of transactions from one another in
> the first
> > place.
> >
> > We have limited resources on the blockchain and so they should
> go to the
> > highest bidder. This is already how the network functions and how it
> > ensures it's security.
> >
> > Rather than thinking about this as "spam", I think it's useful to
> > objectively think about it in terms of value to the marketplace
> (fees
> > they're willing to pay) against cost to the network (storage
> consumed). It
> > comes down to supply and demand.
> >
> > If the rate of growth of the blockchain is too high, Ordinals
> aren't the
> > cause, it's rather that the theoretical limit of the amount of
> storage that
> > can be added per block isn't sufficiently limited. (Whether they
> are used
> > to produce Ordinals or something else)
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 30, 2023, 5:51 PM , <
> > bitcoin-dev-request at lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Send bitcoin-dev mailing list submissions to
> >> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >>
> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
> >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >> bitcoin-dev-request at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >>
> >> You can reach the person managing the list at
> >> bitcoin-dev-owner at lists.linuxfoundation.org
> >>
> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> >> than "Re: Contents of bitcoin-dev digest..."
> >>
> >>
> >> Today's Topics:
> >>
> >> 1. Re: Concern about "Inscriptions". (rot13maxi)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Message: 1
> >> Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2023 18:34:12 +0000
> >> From: rot13maxi <rot13maxi at protonmail.com>
> >> To: L?o Haf <leohaf at orangepill.ovh>, "vjudeu at gazeta.pl"
> >> <vjudeu at gazeta.pl>
> >> Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
> >> <bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Concern about "Inscriptions".
> >> Message-ID:
> >>
> >>
> <RIqguuebFmAhEDqCY_0T8KRqHBXEfcvPw6-MbDIyWsAWpLenFFeOVx88-068QFZr7xowg-6Zg988HsRCKdswtZC6QUKPXnrTyTAc_l5jphg=@
> >> protonmail.com <http://protonmail.com>>
> >>
> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> > This cat and mouse game can be won by bitcoin defenders. Why
> ? Because
> >> it is easier to detect these transactions and make them a
> standardization
> >> rule than to create new types of spam transactions.
> >>
> >> One of the things discussed during the mempoolfullrbf
> discussion is that
> >> a small (~10%) of nodes willing to relay a class of transaction
> is enough
> >> for that class of transaction to consistently reach miners.
> That means you
> >> would need to get nearly the entire network to run updated
> relay policy to
> >> prevent inscriptions from trivially reaching miners and being
> included in
> >> blocks. Inscription users have shown that they are willing and
> able to send
> >> non-standard transactions to miners out of band (
> >>
> https://mempool.space/tx/0301e0480b374b32851a9462db29dc19fe830a7f7d7a88b81612b9d42099c0ae),
> >> so even if you managed to get enough of the network running the
> new rule to
> >> prevent propagation to miners, those users can just go out of
> band. Or,
> >> they can simply change the script that is used to embed an
> inscription in
> >> the transaction witness. For example, instead of 0 OP_IF?,
> maybe they do 0
> >> OP_DUP OP_DROP OP_IF. When the anti-inscription people detect
> this, they
> >> have to update the rule and wait for 90%
> >> + of the network to upgrade. When the pro-inscription people
> see this,
> >> they only have to convince other inscription enthusiasts and
> businesses to
> >> update.
> >>
> >> The anti-inscription patch has to be run by many more
> participants (most
> >> of whom don?t care), while the pro-inscription update has to be
> run by a
> >> small number of people who care a lot. It?s a losing battle for the
> >> anti-inscription people.
> >>
> >> If you want to prevent inscriptions, the best answer we know of
> today is
> >> economic: the cost of the blockspace needs to be more expensive
> than
> >> inscribers are willing to pay, either because its too expensive
> or because
> >> there?s no market demand for inscriptions. The former relies on
> Bitcoin
> >> becoming more useful to more people, the latter is the natural
> course of
> >> collectibles.
> >>
> >> > Finally, I would like to quote satoshi himself who wrote
> about spam
> >> here is the link:
> >> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=195.msg1617#msg1617
> >>
> >> Appeals to Satoshi are not compelling arguments.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Rijndael
> >>
> >> On Sun, Jul 30, 2023 at 2:04 PM, L?o Haf via bitcoin-dev <[
> >> bitcoin-dev at lists.linuxfoundation.org](mailto:On Sun, Jul 30,
> 2023 at
> >> 2:04 PM, L?o Haf via bitcoin-dev <<a href=)> wrote:
> >>
> >> > ?According to you, the rules of standardization are useless
> but in this
> >> case why were they introduced? The opreturn limit can be
> circumvented by
> >> miners, yet it is rare to see any, the same for maxancestorcount,
> >> minrelayfee or even the dust limit.
> >> >
> >> > This cat and mouse game can be won by bitcoin defenders. Why
> ? Because
> >> it is easier to detect these transactions and make them a
> standardization
> >> rule than to create new types of spam transactions.
> >> >
> >> > As for the default policy, it can be a weakness but also a
> strength
> >> because if the patch is integrated into Bitcoin Core by being
> activated by
> >> default, the patch will become more and more effective as the
> nodes update.
> >> >
> >> > Also, when it came to using a pre-segwit node, it is not a
> solution
> >> because this type of node cannot initiate new ones, which is
> obviously a
> >> big problem.
> >> >
> >> > Finally, I would like to quote satoshi himself who wrote
> about spam
> >> here is the link:
> >> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=195.msg1617#msg1617
> >> >
> >> >> Le 27 juil. 2023 ? 07:10, vjudeu at gazeta.pl a ?crit :
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >> ?
> >> >
> >> >>> not taking action against these inscription could be
> interpreted by
> >> spammers as tacit acceptance of their practice.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >> Note that some people, even on this mailing list, do not
> consider
> >> Ordinals as spam:
> >>
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2023-February/021464.html
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >> See? It was discussed when it started. Some people believe that
> >> blocking Ordinals is censorship, and could lead to blocking regular
> >> transactions in the future, just based on other criteria. That
> means, even
> >> if developers would create some official version with that
> option, then
> >> some people would not follow them, or even block
> Ordinals-filtering nodes,
> >> exactly as described in the linked thread:
> >>
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2023-February/021487.html
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >>> as spammers might perceive that the Bitcoin network
> tolerates this
> >> kind of behavior
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >> But it is true, you have the whole pages, where you can find
> images,
> >> files, or other data, that was pushed on-chain long before
> Ordinals. The
> >> whole whitepaper was uploaded just on 1-of-3 multisig outputs, see
> >> transaction
> >>
> 54e48e5f5c656b26c3bca14a8c95aa583d07ebe84dde3b7dd4a78f4e4186e713.
> You have
> >> the whole altcoins that are connected to Bitcoin by using part
> of the
> >> Bitcoin's UTXO set as their database.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >> That means, as long as you won't solve IBD problem and UTXO set
> >> growing problem, you will go nowhere, because if you block Ordinals
> >> specifically, people won't learn "this is bad, don't do that",
> they could
> >> read it as "use the old way instead", as long as you won't
> block all
> >> possible ways. And doing that, requires for example creating
> new nodes,
> >> without synchronizing non-consensus data, like it could be done
> in "assume
> >> UTXO" model.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >> Also note that as long as people use Taproot to upload a lot
> of data,
> >> you can still turn off the witness, and become a pre-Segwit
> node. But if
> >> you block those ways, then people will push data into legacy
> parts, and
> >> then you will need more code to strip it correctly. The block
> 774628 maybe
> >> contains almost 4 MB of data from the perspective of Segwit
> node, but the
> >> legacy part is actually very small, so by turning witness off,
> you can
> >> strip it to maybe just a few kilobytes.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >>> I want to emphasize that my proposal does not involve
> implementing a
> >> soft fork in any way. On the contrary, what I am asking is
> simply to
> >> consider adding a standardization option. This option would
> allow the
> >> community to freely decide whether it should be activated or not.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >> 1. Without a soft-fork, those data will be pushed by mining
> pools
> >> anyway, as it happened in the block 774628.
> >> >
> >> >> 2. Adding some settings won't help, as most people use the
> default
> >> configuration. For example, people can configure their nodes to
> allow free
> >> transactions, without recompiling anything. The same with
> disabling dust
> >> amounts. But good luck finding a node in the wild that does
> anything
> >> unusual.
> >> >
> >> >> 3. This patch produced by Luke Dashjr does not address all
> cases. You
> >> could use "OP_TRUE OP_NOTIF" instead of "OP_FALSE OP_IF" used
> by Ordinals,
> >> and easily bypass those restrictions. This will be just a cat
> and mouse
> >> game, where spammers will even use P2PK, if they will be forced
> to. The
> >> Pandora's box is already opened, that fix could be good for
> February or
> >> March, but not now.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >>> On 2023-07-26 11:47:09 user leohaf at orangepill.ovh wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>> I understand your point of view. However, inscription
> represent by
> >> far the largest spam attack due to their ability to embed
> themselves in the
> >> witness with a fee reduction.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >> Unlike other methods, such as using the op_return field
> which could
> >> also be used to spam the chain, the associated fees and the
> standardization
> >> rule limiting op_return to 80 bytes have so far prevented
> similar abuses.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >> Although attempting to stop inscription could lead to more
> serious
> >> issues, not taking action against these inscription could be
> interpreted by
> >> spammers as tacit acceptance of their practice. This could
> encourage more
> >> similar spam attacks in the future, as spammers might perceive
> that the
> >> Bitcoin network tolerates this kind of behavior.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >> I want to emphasize that my proposal does not involve
> implementing a
> >> soft fork in any way. On the contrary, what I am asking is
> simply to
> >> consider adding a standardization option. This option would
> allow the
> >> community to freely decide whether it should be activated or not.
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >>>> Le 26 juil. 2023 ? 07:30, vjudeu at gazeta.pl a ?crit :
> >> >
> >> >>>> and I would like to understand why this problem has not been
> >> addressed more seriously
> >> >
> >> >>> Because if nobody has any good solution, then status quo is
> >> preserved. If tomorrow ECDSA would be broken, the default state
> of the
> >> network would be "just do nothing", and every solution would be
> >> backward-compatible with that approach. Burn old coins, and
> people will
> >> call it "Tether", redistribute them, and people will call it
> "BSV". Leave
> >> everything untouched, and the network will split into N parts,
> and then you
> >> pick the strongest chain to decide, what should be done.
> >> >
> >> >>>> However, when it comes to inscriptions, there are no available
> >> options except for a patch produced by Luke Dashjr.
> >> >
> >> >>> Because the real solution should address some different
> problem, that
> >> was always there, and nobody knows, how to deal with it: the
> problem of
> >> forever-growing initial blockchain download time, and
> forever-growing UTXO
> >> set. Some changes with "assume UTXO" are trying to address just
> that, but
> >> this code is not yet completed.
> >> >
> >> >>>> So, I wonder why there are no options to reject
> inscriptions in the
> >> mempool of a node.
> >> >
> >> >>> Because it will lead you to never ending chase. You will
> block one
> >> inscriptions, and different ones will be created. Now, they are
> present
> >> even on chains, where there is no Taproot, or even Segwit. That
> means, if
> >> you try to kill them, then they will be replaced by N regular
> >> indistinguishable transactions, and then you will go back to
> those more
> >> serious problems under the hood: IBD time, and UTXO size.
> >> >
> >> >>>> Inscriptions are primarily used to sell NFTs or Tokens,
> concepts
> >> that the Bitcoin community has consistently rejected.
> >> >
> >> >>> The community also rejected things like sidechains, and
> they are
> >> still present, just in a more centralized form. There are some
> unstoppable
> >> concepts, for example soft-forks. You cannot stop a soft-fork. What
> >> inscription creators did, is just non-enforced soft-fork. They
> believe
> >> their rules are followed to the letter, but this is not the
> case, as you
> >> can create a valid Bitcoin transaction, that will be some
> invalid Ordinals
> >> transaction (because their additional rules are not enforced by
> miners and
> >> nodes).
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