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Last Notes

2025-10-05 17:32:29 UTC

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The main difference between the USA and most other countries is the number of guns in the hands of people and people can mostly use those guns. There is only a certain amount people will put up with before they snap, and when the president sends in the military against civilians, it pits civilians against potential family members who are in the national guard, there will be a point where even the US generals in charge of those units say NO, and defy the orders of the president.
As for people who can't fight, family members will see that, look at the new costs of medical care and realise they are not simply fighting for their future but also for the future of those with no voice or choices due to illness.
I can see something happening, Musk is already trying to incite civil war here in the UK.

2025-10-05 15:01:31 UTC

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I think the US needs a civil war, I say that as the country is so polarized there is no going back from that, something has to snap and people need to fight it out, even though the cost in human lives could be immense, something HAS to happen.
Something is inevitable.

2025-10-04 14:06:03 UTC

Free software Foundation 40th
Birthday event starts very shortly
https://www.fsf.org/live
irc #fsf40
https://www.fsf.org
#fsf40

2025-10-02 07:21:19 UTC

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es
I have no problem with this, BUT, friends don't usually let friends break the law, sometimes even your closest friend has to be told NO, sometimes you HAVE to stop friends doing stuff that is illegal, even if that results in their arrest, it may get them the help they need, if nothing else, for their own good.
A friend is not much of a friend if they stick by you while you commit serious offenses such as rape, murder.
Lets see if Rachael Reeves has the ability to actually understand this and put pressure on Netenyau to either seek peace or step aside so someone else in his country can take israel forward as a civilised nation or cement them in this part of history as complicit in Gencide (UN has used that word).

2025-09-21 06:10:48 UTC

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Isn't Dick usually an alternative name for Richard?

2025-09-20 17:48:10 UTC

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Done, well it is on a blog post
https://zleap.net/blog/gaza-verified-emergency-appeal

2025-08-29 20:07:36 UTC

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How can we address all the mis/dis information out there. Until we also solve that I fear we won't change anything as people won't realise how serious the situation is.

2025-08-15 17:35:43 UTC

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A reminder, there are now replacements and lots of options
@npub1fjx…766r

2025-08-12 15:41:49 UTC

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From the website
"Accessible using the Assistant button on the top-right, it can be be called up to use with any team collaboration tools. Allows users to execute pre-defined operations (summarize, create a headline etc) or give a free prompt. Self-hosted or cloud-based, you choose the AI model to power your assistant. Several local large language models are supported meaning users can access the full power of large language models without fearing data leaks "
The feature does seem optional and not something just rammed down our throats like the big tech companies are doing
@npub1rk6…hv4q

2025-08-03 06:15:48 UTC

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I think this is the sort of low level and peaceful protests we need, if nothing else it may get people thinking and talking about the subject.

2025-08-01 07:37:33 UTC

There is an assumption everyone has or wants a phone, also an assumption that people can afford a phone, or data (even with data gifting) so as a result more services are using phones,
At the same time, as you said we can't use cash on buses (we can where I am) however all these require smartphones, which we want to ban for under 16s, so they are going to find them selves in that precise situation.
We also assume people have phones running Apple or Google so what about people using other things like postmarketOS, graphine, which as far as I understand are open sourcee, mobile systems, unless they are compatible with google android.
I agree people need to wake up or we are going to just be excluded.

2025-07-22 06:30:08 UTC

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So maybe those protesting (and risking prison) for doing and the rest of us need to change tactic and find a way to resolve this in the courts.
No qualified judge can argue with the wording of international law, and the fact a number of international independent bodies have labelled this genocide. If anything else a judge in a lower court may not have the power to judge and needs to hand to a higher court.

2025-07-19 10:20:18 UTC

Paignton Festival 2025
Friday 25th July – Sunday 10th August 2025
https://paignton-festival.com/

2025-07-04 07:53:43 UTC

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Firstly I would not wish on anyone the circumstances that means they have to claim PIP. But anyone of these politicians or other civil servants who advice / process claims could be struck down tomorrow with a condition that leaves them unable to work and struggle with day to day tasks, while still having to find money for essentials, food, rent, mortgage, cooking etc.
So what would THEY do if they suddently found themselves on the other side of the system.

2025-07-02 06:25:19 UTC

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Along with full funding for schools so people can leave school with the grades and skills to go on to university and to study science and medicine or the subjects needed to work in the NHS.
We can't keep relying on overseas medical staff (it deprives other countries of their medical staff) we need to train and retain our own staff too, so yes, and that will also benefit people like MSF with expertise from the UK.

2025-06-19 07:33:21 UTC

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Give me a human driver any day. A human driver can be trained in CPR or to recognise the difference between a stroke (or other conditions) and being drunk and call for help accordingly. Or understand mental health crisis and act accordingly (not just eject passenger from the car) or perhaps if a person who has been attacked hails a taxi, be offered a lift gratis as at that time it is the right thing to do and it is clearly an emergency.

2025-06-18 07:20:34 UTC

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So they can remove children from the country, but can't remove rapists, paedophiles involved in the grooming gangs.
They CAN deport people, they CAN use the ECHR to protect victims, but they CHOOSE not to. It is choice.
As for this case, it just seems rediculous, given we are talking about removing children from parents.

2025-06-18 07:15:35 UTC

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The UK home office is incompetent.

2025-05-05 07:30:41 UTC

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Agreed, I think the catch 22 with this is.
People using public transport, but can find journeys slow due to other traffic because drivers use cars because public transport is slower, held up by people driving cars.

2025-05-05 05:47:19 UTC

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I was thinking the same thing, with the cloud I can work on a scene in the UK, either filming and editing and I would assume go back to a studio workshop, work on the film, which would be stored in the cloud, probably at the head office in the USA.

2025-04-30 07:32:57 UTC

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I assume CPS is child protection services, here in the UK staff in schools are NOT allowed to hit chidren in any circumstances, in fact staff need to have specific training to restrain a child (which is needed if they are in danger or others are in danger) however that has to be a last resort.
You are in no way a bully for calling CPS, in the UK hitting a child is assault and a sackable offence, even if the child hits you first.

2025-04-15 19:12:16 UTC

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Don't give MAGA ideas

2025-04-11 06:13:07 UTC

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I am sure we need to stop talking ourselves down, constant negatives and talk of recession surely spooks investors which impacts on a much wider range of sectors.

2025-03-11 20:47:42 UTC

Trump orders 50% tariffs on Canadian steel and aluminium starting at midnight
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cly412xwz44t

2025-02-27 08:12:48 UTC

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If wording is important 6 percent supporting dictatorships means that 94 percent support democracy.

2025-02-26 09:08:40 UTC

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Yeah, my point was more that we have proper conversations here, ignore the sceptics on the subject and if anyone wants to contribute they are welcome to do so and cite evidence to help take the conversation forward.
Even within that conversation if there is a clear mis interpretation or mis understanding then the nice thing about here is that we help each other to a better understanding.

2025-02-26 08:39:28 UTC

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We can fight mis information on vaccines with what you have here, acual data and linking to the science. (btw where did the graphic come from)
My local American Football team head coach, has a degree in Geology, one of the things he has told me is there is a phenonomen where the more you double down on the science the more the sceptics try and argue their counter point, even when it is clearly a losing battle.
So on that, do we spend time trying to argue our point that vaccines work, or do we spend time just sharing the actual science and just dicuss the points raised and ignore the sceptics. Where vaccines do have side effects perhaps help share data or our experiences and see if we can help determine why they are not working in some cases (e.g i know with covid if people have other health conditions the vaccine was less effective).
I am aware that arXiv is a pre print service but I think it is still worth sharing papers on there to help our point,
anti vaxxers etc are, of course more than welcome to share their actual research, cite actual papers etc etc. That is the whole point of peer review and in line with good science practice retract papers where there are concerns.

2025-02-18 18:20:30 UTC

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Maybe the one way to fight this is to stop giving MAGA and the USA as much attention and to really push what other countries have to offer.
Given MAGA are more attention seeking not giving them what they crave may have a bigger impact.

2025-02-18 16:46:40 UTC

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You will need to against MAGA, Trump and Musk.

2025-02-14 20:00:41 UTC

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What sort of country allows poisons like leads in drinking water, ffs.

2025-02-12 21:39:26 UTC

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How many of these orgs are on the Fediverse, can we get them here, so they can spread their messages in a way that will help boost their cause rather than causing pushbacks from MAGA supporters.

2025-01-20 21:58:54 UTC

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We need to preserve all we can regarding this and other topics so at least those of us out side the US can learn and teach about it.
We could see alot of this coming.
Share information on the internet and see if any resources can be moved out side the US juristictions, so hopefully the US government can't demand their deletion.

2025-01-17 19:38:41 UTC

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Something like this?
https://small-tech.org/about/
@npub1p09…m5vl

2025-01-17 08:14:45 UTC

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I would assume, as an open protocol, ActivityPub can adapt and change over time, so that newer services can be created with newer features. Existing services will also adapt. Or we get say Mastodon2.0 which is backward compatible with 1.0. Not sure how the data base works that stores data, but I would guess it is seperate from AP so data can be moved just like data can be downloaded and uploaded to a different instance. So at some point we can download from a AP1.0 instance and upload to a AP2.0 instance.

2025-01-12 15:14:20 UTC

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Agreed, the ban was short but shifted things to the side of Brazil so they were calling the shots, it proves it can be done

2025-01-03 09:06:21 UTC

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Agreed, it is concerning, but nothing will happen, we will get to the next election and reform could make huge gains. The current two main parties need to be held to account.
I suspect anyone running for reform will have a similar anti immigration agenda, but zero actual plan to address people traffiking or the skills shortages that bring people in.
Apparently there won't be reform of the social care system until 2028, one of the sectors that is struggling as it relied on overseas workers. by 2028 it will be in an even bigger crisis, and labour will just do the 'sticking plaster over a gunshot wound' clain they fixed it, and blame the previous government for breaking it, despite by that time being in for 4 years and not really doingj anything.
With that £100 million farage could do a LOT of research and planning and come up with some real solutions to the issues involved.
If he has any real desire to gain power, he will do that and have a proper plan in place by the time of the next election.

2025-01-01 13:12:45 UTC

Elon Musk changes his name to Kekius Maximus on X
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy53vz1qpx1o

2024-12-27 09:16:53 UTC

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I think the Isreal has made it clear that it considers the people of Palestine as anything other than people, they are all seem to be put in the same category as Hamas, despite most of the people IN Gaza not being born when Hamas took control.
The US just follows the line set by the Isreali hard lined government,
On a similar line, Jews subjected to anti semitism over the current crisis are all assumed to be in support of the current governments stance, I get the impression many Jews are not even supportive on Netenyahu, even in Isreal.

2024-12-25 19:52:18 UTC

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I think I have the same model here, which I also deleted and is now running Mint 22 / Kali dual boot, I recognise the PSU connector, being the oblong shape.
These Lenovos are great laptops.

2024-12-13 07:29:19 UTC

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You notice this when you have both volunteer and paid employment on your CV, employers seem to disregard volunteer work, even if that volunteer work is more related to the role you are applying for. Indeed job site seems to do this, so any volunteer workis given less presidence over paid work, this really can hold people back.

2024-12-05 18:17:52 UTC

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Creepy

2024-11-25 08:06:07 UTC

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"Its not so much 'stranger danger' for women, rather they are at most of risk of being murdered at home & by those they are intimate with."
Same as with child abuse, more likely to be committed by a person known to the child rather than a complate stranger, of course the internet is changing the dynamic a little but predators gain the trust of the child, so it is still not opportunistic, they groom the child to trust them, then get them to send pictures, video or try and meet up.

2024-11-17 16:23:16 UTC

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This may sound harsh, but those investing their life savings in to say crypto, they are adults, they should know the risks etc.
We have a TV programme in the UK, it is about people buying property at auction, usually as property developers, one of the things that the presenters keep reminding people 'read the legal pack' as that has all the info about the property, any issues, covenents or otehr restrictions.
I am NOT an expert, but surely it is important to invest but do so after taking solid advice on the subject before hand.

2024-11-12 08:30:03 UTC

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In one sesne the Dems have two years to get their act together so they can take back the Senate ( i think ) which should make it much harder for Trump to get any laws passed, after that they have 2 years to go further and win the next election, they will then spend 4 years simply undoing all the damage that can be undone.
Of course in 4 years there may not be an election as Trump has suggested or implied that there may not be an election.

2024-11-03 19:23:37 UTC

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We talk of a 2nd term, but Trump has talked in such a way it suggests this will be the last election as once in, he will make sure he stays in power, as in no more elections, so this won't be a 2nd 4 year term it will be a indefinate term or could be.

2024-10-31 19:05:24 UTC

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That was my point too as I said there are now solar panels designed to let light through and use the wavelengths needed.

2024-10-31 15:15:05 UTC

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Great news, hopefully this will push people towards fedi a lot more, let's use this as a marketing tool

2024-10-31 14:41:10 UTC

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"A retired science teacher said she was concerned the panels would prevent plants in the area from growing"
The above may be a valid point, however they have now invented solar panels that allow the light wavelengths needed for plants through, while capturing the light wavelengths needed for the panels to work efficiently. So this is now less of a concern.
Even then as the Earth moves rotation and orbits the sun then I guess there will be periods where the grass the panels are on will also capture sunlight, even livestock can graze this grass (which keeps the grass trim at least).
So conern raised, problem has been solved.
As for the headline comment there is no some people I guess.

2024-10-19 09:05:12 UTC

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It will be interesting to find out what the US does having given Israel a deadline to get aid in to Gaza, what is the benchmark for this. Gaza needs 100s of tons of aid per day, if they get 1 aid truck, that has been allowed in. They could argue that aid has been let in.

2024-10-17 05:41:40 UTC

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Where is the video, ? make it available as it is EVIDENCE of war crimes,

2024-10-16 17:12:35 UTC

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hi
So what was their reasoning for this ? Shooting unarmed children. At least he died instantly (hopefully) and didn't burn to death like others have at the hands of IDF murderers.

2024-10-15 07:46:26 UTC

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Maybe one of the attemps to kill trump may actually work. I am NOT advocating assassinating Trump, but 3 attemps so far in a country obsessed with guns, where young children can attend gun meets and hit the target and so far 3 people have failed to hit trump with a bullet despite him being a good size target.
One question the guy who did this at the golf course was arrested (IIRC) so where is he, what is HIS story and or motivation?

2024-09-27 07:45:48 UTC

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The last few days has seen enough rain to help replenish reserviours.

2024-09-24 07:40:40 UTC

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Agreed, blocking exists for a reason, it is clear to a vast majority X does not care about user safety, regulators are about as usless as a can paint full of air. So as long as that carries on it will get worse.

2024-09-20 15:19:53 UTC

@npub1tgg…qwzh
Just looking to see if I can talk to people about #LibreOffice on Matrix rather than IRC, I found this and agree with the proposal
https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/website/2024/msg00055.html
I have nothing against IRC, but this is 2024, matrix has a simple client and signup / sign in process which is better for everyone.

2024-09-20 15:06:23 UTC

@npub1tgg…qwzh
hi, I am trying to generate a qr code as per instructions at https://help.libreoffice.org/latest/en-US/text/shared/01/qrcode.html, I am using LibreOffice 7.2 (7.3 community) on LinuxMint 21.3., once I follow those instructions,and press OK, I can't see a qr code in my document, am I doing something wrong? or is the feature not working
Thanks
Paul

2024-09-07 13:40:03 UTC

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You can use the money to fund help and support for sex abuse victims

2024-09-05 07:58:10 UTC

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Would what @npub1p09…m5vl is working on be suitable here?
https://small-tech.org/

2024-09-03 05:58:02 UTC

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If there were proper channels to apply for asylum in safe countries, there would be less need to risk everything to get to a safe country. Once in a safe country you can either stay or get temporary stay visa while you apply for a visa in a 3rd country. Sadly this system seems to have been eroded, people traffikers now fill the voice once held by consulates etc. (or how ever people used to apply to go to other countries)

2024-08-30 09:45:02 UTC

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Ok odd question and one that maybe other maybe thinking about too, What is a veto, ? it seems they are used to not vote on a resolution, but there seems to be a lot more to it than that.

2024-08-30 08:22:02 UTC

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How many more times does the UN Secretary general need to do this before he finally spells out OR ELSE!! Tell israel to stop and spell out clearly the consequences for israel if they don't.

2024-08-25 12:07:43 UTC

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If I get those income tax bands, the highest is something like 125k a year, but the average football player earns far more than that a week.
We really need tax thresholds somewhere around 128 k per week, so even things up perhaps. Or several million a year, same goes for NI thresholds too.

2024-08-25 11:34:44 UTC

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I am sure a lot of it is more about winning votes before elections, Labour has said it won't raise income taxe, it could have said it won't raise taxes for lower income earners, freeing them up to raise taxes for higher income earners. They have not said anything about income tax thresholds, so a huge numnber of NHS and rail workers are about to get an inflation busting pay rise, so unless the tax thresholds are adjusted they may find they pay more tax on that upper slice of income.
Details on current tax bands are here
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/banking/tax-rates/

2024-08-19 07:44:21 UTC

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I think a vast majority of jews world wide don't share the same sentiment and are not happy with what is going on in Gaza, west bank and the wider middle east. Or I get that impression.

2024-08-15 06:12:45 UTC

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The test will be the next time someone attacks a police officer in the street, will they be arrested, remanded in custody, hauled before a judge and sentenced with a very short space of time?
An 11 year old girl and her mother were recetly stabbed in London, person arrested seems to have a September court date, so I guess NO.

2024-08-15 06:02:32 UTC

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While most of the arrested are from the anti-immigration rioters, quite a few people in the counterprotest have also been arrested and charged.

2024-08-14 17:23:02 UTC

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This looks fantastic, great work, still reading at the moment.

2024-08-14 10:54:57 UTC

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Is there any research for Avian Flu e.g h5n1 which is decimating birds and causing huge amount of worry in some of the science communities.?

2024-08-11 17:33:39 UTC

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Can we ask the question about what Britons think to the resonse to the riots, My response to the riots it is shows the worst of humanty and that racism and division can't win.
My Response to my question is that the way we as a country responded is to band together and tell the racists their opnions / views are welcome if presented in the right way, as in share concerns with pen to paper (so to speak) and express concerns that way, Violence won't get you what you want. (I hope that reads as I intended here) The riots also showed the best side, by providing hours of self made footage the rioters have booked them a date before a Judge and a stay at his majesties pleasure, so thank you for doing that, we can get you off the street.
Our response also highlights how, as a multi cultural country, we can band together and show love and support for our fellow human beings, burn a library down and we will raise funds to rebuild and refill the library, while challening the nonsense behind why it was burned down (kids section books were replaced with the quoran). Loot shops and damage property we will band together and clean up, we will meet en masse to counter your violent so called protests (aka riots) and send a louder, more united message.

2024-08-08 12:31:34 UTC

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Starving Isreal of weapons would be a far better plan

2024-08-08 07:58:04 UTC

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hat
I do appreciate that, but the far right are gaining ground across europe and Trump is looking for another 4 years in the white house. How big is the global world wide movement here? Both Farage and Boris are buddies with Trump.
What we HAVE proven is they can't win if people counter them and stand up to them, the civilised are able to show themselves as strong, united and caring, which is more powerful than violence will ever be.

2024-08-08 07:46:17 UTC

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Each one of them has the potential to radicalise others.

2024-08-08 07:38:16 UTC

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I never understand what Immutable means?

2024-08-08 07:09:35 UTC

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It seems amazing that after a week of riots, spaning cities across the UK, that they suddenly end, does this offer proof they are co-ordinating? If so,where, or has the additional threat of up to 3 years in prison deter a vast majority of them.

2024-08-08 04:02:23 UTC

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So from that, they won't be able to attend football games, but will clearly be able to cause chaos at other sports such as rugby etc.
Nice going
Given the role social media is playing with this we HAVE to clamp down hard on them, as I said before stop being nice, they have had their chance(s) so we have lost patience and need to let them know.
Start with fines and ring fence the money to help rebuild after the damage caused, also ring fence the money to expend the Prevent strategy
If they want to operate in the UK they have to, like everyone else, do so on OUR terms under OUR laws.
Paul

2024-08-07 17:28:00 UTC

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Sounds good, I can see signal is next.
The problem is, that these platforms are e2ee which for many is essential, esp if journalist or at risk from oppressive regimes, having people on there who take full advantage of that to set up riots, will fuel argulents to clamp down on these platforms which of course will have a drametic (and perhaps deadly) impac on the very people who need to use them.

2024-08-07 15:56:29 UTC

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Ok fair point, Well the library in Liverpool offered stuff to the community before the plebs set fire to it, apparently as someone had said all the kids books were replaced with the Quran (bbc news interview)

2024-08-07 15:51:48 UTC

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So teachers and school staff are meant to work 52 weeks of the year?

2024-08-07 15:47:26 UTC

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I work in a school, teachers and staff need a break

2024-08-07 15:03:14 UTC

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I guess it is different depending on your view point but I guess
a grounding in Mathematics is important, I will say Language as everyone needs to understand their native language well (hence lets not say English here)
Science teaches critical thinking skills
Debating
Research skills
Problem solving
Personal finance, budgeting, taxation
even things like cooking is important,
How democracy and other government systems work, how are they similar how do they differ
We do have religious educaiton in the UK, so learning about different religions
A lot of the time education is not seen as relevant, I read somewhere that unless you are studying Physics, then most of what is taught in maths is never used in your life.
How about criminal justice,
How to engage with MPs and or representatives
Having a class representative is good, vote on who that is, vote on school issues, get involved with some decision making within the school through voting, and yes you may vote in favour of something and not get that, well that is how voting works.
Accepting defeat, picking your self up and carrying on.
Activism is also important, but it is also important to be informed so you can make solid arguments to your cause.
I don't have all the answers here, but there are core subjects that make the rest a lot easier, if you learn to read / comprehend information you can learn more by reading and communicating with others. so how to ask questions is another one perhaps.

2024-08-07 14:48:18 UTC

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I think there is some consencus on here that good solid education is the key to tackling all sorts of problems.

2024-08-07 12:22:19 UTC

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Is it 'just' racism, we have a problem telling people their behaviour is not acceptable becase we don't want to 'hurt their feelings' there was a time when NO meant NO, STOP meant STOP but that means we deny expression.
We need to EDUCATE people in schools and not worry about making people upset, learning about the holocaust is not meant to be 'nice' history is not all fluffy and nice, lets start making some things COMPULSORY in schools and clamp down in schools on behaviour that demonstrates hated or incites hatred and discrimination.

2024-08-07 12:07:22 UTC

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They should be invited as a reminder of what happens when these weapons are used.

2024-08-07 11:57:51 UTC

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One of them has a history of violent behaviour. I am guessing a persons history e.g previous convictions vs no previous convictions is a factor.
If they were smirking before lets see how many of them are smirking after.
I still agree on the JSO thing, perhaps under the circumstances the JSO five will be releasted to free up space for people who are clearly a danger to society.

2024-08-07 08:15:01 UTC

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We need to start targeting the people behind these scams in the same way as we are going after these rioters, don't tell me that social media is behind these scams, so another reason to clamp down on social media in a very robust way too.

2024-08-07 07:57:24 UTC

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The rioters are made up of people of all ages, includingj children and there are quite a few WOMEN in there too. Shows the reach of social media, inflience of the far right and a culmination of what is being reported in the press e.g DailyFail, and the level of racism and hatred in the UK, or it demonstrates a serious lack of education or intelligence of some people. Not sure which.

2024-08-04 15:46:25 UTC

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Even recreational drugs are ahead of laws, people are playingj catch up constantly

2024-08-04 15:26:02 UTC

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Even at lower levels there is a problem, I have heard of testing etc. I think people are under a huge amount of pressure, coaches and managers can lose their job after one or two losses, players pick up injuries and need to recover, for that they need medication that may or may not at that time contained banned substances.
While this is fine for recovery they need to be clean for competing.
Some medication can also mimick hormones, such as testosterone or oestrogen, this then causes additional problems.
I watched a program last year or maybe the year before. A person had consumed a bagette, that had on it poppy seeds, After being tested for drugs at work (routine in some work places) and FAILED the test for opium, so they had not even taken illegal drugs, just consumed food.
It seems to be a really complex state of affairs.

2024-08-04 15:09:04 UTC

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I have coached tag rugby and never said that, I also helped with an American football team in the UK and coaches never said that, there are GOOD coaches out there.

2024-08-04 12:39:58 UTC

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That coach should be STRUCK OFF

2024-08-04 07:51:43 UTC

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The far right have been a higher threat than islamic extremism for a while,

2024-07-31 10:59:59 UTC

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It seemed fine until the likes of google, facebook and big corporations got involved and make it about money and profit.

2024-07-31 10:34:32 UTC

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Ridiculous that this happens and that people think AI is the next big thing. It is BS in the wrong hands and meta is the wrong hands

2024-07-07 15:05:02 UTC

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Well lets hope that the government step in and take this in to account, I think they are also worried about jobs in the supply chain too, as in those jobs that would also be lost if these plants shut, the knock on effect could see 1000's more job loses.